A Fresh Face in Hell with Jonathan Evison
A Fresh Face in Hell with Jonathan Evison is an hour long, conversation based, format. Guests include writers, musicians, athletes, actors, philosophers, scientists, and an array of experts across a variety of disciplines. Subjects will be treated with a mix of humor and thoughtful exploration.
A Fresh Face in Hell with Jonathan Evison
Mary Van Geffen - Parenting Spicy Children
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Long-time listeners have heard me talk about raising a couple of spicy teenagers. My wife and I have always leaned toward a free-range parenting approach, which can lead, for better or worse, to some fiercely independent kids. It’s also led to more than a few sleepless nights worrying about their future. Today, parenting coach and author Mary Van Geffen joins me to hash it all out. Her book, Parenting a Spicy One, encourages parents to let go of control, build connection, and survive the chaos of raising kids with big personalities. Mary shares some sage advice and gives me a few new tools for talking to my teenagers about becoming adults without being called a f**king assh**e.
Mary Van Geffen: https://www.maryvangeffen.com/
linktr.ee: https://linktr.ee/freshfacepods.evison
Welcome to A Fresh Face in Hell. I'm your host, Jonathan Evan. Every week we talk to someone new and interesting, somebody intellectually curious, somebody who will hopefully renew our faith in this cold, cruel world we live in. A Fresh Face in Hell. So, um, as you know, I've got three kids, and they are all of them uh what author and parenting coach Mary Van Geffen would call spicy ones. Now, being a parent is easily the most challenging and rewarding enterprise I've ever embarked in in my life. Though I put literally everything into parenting, almost every day I feel like I failed my children somehow. Uh, I don't know if that's just a me thing or all of us parents go through that. My concern for them runs so deep and pervasive that most nights I wake up at like four in the morning, at which point I kind of just worry about them until dawn. This world they're doing, am I fucking it up? You know, it's impossible to describe my love for them. So today I'm hoping Mary Van Geffen can ease my mind a little bit with a good conversation about parenting. Let me know if I'm doing all right. We're gonna talk about spicy kids. Um, Mary wrote the book Parenting a Spicy One. Uh, my hope is that I'm gonna learn a few new approaches or perspectives that'll help me be a better parent. So no pressure, Mary. Uh thanks for being our fresh face in hell this week.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I'm so glad to be here, and I can tell already that you are a good dad. Just the holding and witnessing people try to figure out who they're gonna be as humans is like sacred work and it's messy and it's awkward, and it's beautiful that you're losing sleep over these little munchkins.
SPEAKER_00Well, that's something that one we'll get into this later. That's something I want to talk about because I know my parents never did this. Times have changed. It's parenting is different these days. But let's start at the top. Let's talk about um well let's let's just start there. Let's talk about some of the exhausting challenges unique to the modern parent. Because, like I said, my parents were not worrying for me. About midnight, they go, Oh, wait, he hasn't come home yet, something like that. But culturally, things have changed a lot since the days when our parents just sort of pushed us out the front door and said, be back for dinner.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that I mean the screens are a big part of that. I could say we almost have less influence and then too much access. We we they're learning a whole world um in their pocket that we will never know. And they're getting access to things that maybe aren't always uh that nutritious. I mean, kid what kids are seeing porn now at average age of uh is it 11 or is it earlier? Um and so I think there's that element that there's there's things coming into their mind and concepts that where our influence is less. And then we have this access to them where we can. I mean, I'm still following where my daughter is at midnight on her college campus just for shits and giggles, just to see what she's up to. And I think there's a feeling that that's somehow closeness or keeps them safe and it doesn't, uh, you know. So I I think technology is a is is literally makes it harder to parent. I have so many people reach out and they're just having constant battles with their kid. And I don't necessarily have a solve for that. Um, and it can be worse with a spicy one because often they can be um addictive personalities.
SPEAKER_00And yeah, we're gonna define spicy one here in a minute. But part of what I'm talking about also about the parenting challenges, you're absolutely right. We have to deal with technology and like uh outside influences on our children. But I also feel like as an ethos, there's more pressure on us as parents. There's more helicopter parenting. I mean, I kind of feel like this started in the early 90s or something. Like there's more pressure, more like uh a sort of follow the Joneses competition like between parents. I live in a kind of an affluent community, though I am not affluent myself. And there's a I you there's a real sense of judgment from other parents, and like the bar is real high, and like, you know, people brag about their kids and everything, but you're expected to be, everyone's expected to be a soccer mom now, kind of like you know what I mean? And then I my neighbor growing up, Gail Marsher, God lover. She was like the proto-socop soccer mom in 1977, had a van full of little league kids, vanity plate, but like she was the only one. She was the first soccer mom that I ever saw. Now it's like every parent is kind of, I mean, if have you noticed this? This is a thing, right? Like there's more pressure on us as parents.
SPEAKER_01Definitely more pressure. I think there's a lot of people who are more connected to their kids than their parents were ever connected to them. But yeah, you've got like all these thought leaders, including myself, telling you what good parenting looks like. And a lot of them are uh clashing with each other, and there's so many people speaking into and having an opinion about parenting that it's we've we created it, we made it a verb. It wasn't a verb back in the 80s. Um it's something that you can now achieve and become better at. And it and in some ways that that kills the vibe because this is a creative enterprise. This is a we're we are developing a masterpiece that's going to go out in the world. And to have people tell us there is this is what good parenting looks like, this is what bad parenting looks like, can add this whole pressure. And then we're like competing and there's just a lot of judgment.
SPEAKER_00And yeah, and well, and as me, it results in a lot of shame because I see all these parents like doing these things, and I'm like, am I supposed to be doing that? Like, am I supposed to be like having forcing all my kids to do select sports so I can spend my weekends in a condominium in Kent watching eight baseball games?
SPEAKER_01The professionalization of sports, oh my gosh, like we as soon as we notice that they might have an inclination to something, we come in and we adultify it and we start, um, we've we've got to add a bunch of nutrients to it and really commit yourself. And that's not how a human develops. I mean, you gotta try a whole bunch of different things, fail at it. And we just we're we're professionalizing so much that's just meant to be awkward childhood, in my opinion.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's it's alienating because I mean it's kind of a microcosm of the whole uh, you know, aspirational culture we live in. It's that way with everything. So now it's now it's uh bled into parenting. I guess we should really define what a spicy one is right off the bat, because you're talking specifically about, you know, the challenges of of uh you know parenting a spicy one. So let's define spicy one.
SPEAKER_01There's a few ways we can say it's just a str another name for a strong-willed, sort of fierce child, which is a temperamental approach, meaning their temperament, sort of their personality, they're usually um intense human beings. They are um inflexible, they're deep feelers, and they're sort of slow to warm up to change. And that's a that's a temperament, but there's also this idea that a spicy one is any kid that you don't think you have the resources to parent well. And you kind of have a mythology within you that says, I'm failing this kid. So to me, it sounds like you've got some spicy ones if you're if you're spending a lot of time thinking it's not enough. And sometimes that's an internal game that we have to play.
SPEAKER_00So you hit on the word temperament. And so, you know, uh among my biggest concerns as a parent is my own temperament because I'm bipolar too, which means, you know, not I'm the kind of bipolar that doesn't get depressed. It just means I'm kind of manic. I have a ton of energy. That's you know, why I have a podcast and I write books and I do fit, you know, I just got a lot of energy. I got this tiger by the tail, but it means I can be pretty intense, uh, extremely energetic, persistent, and just a general pain in the ass, you know, regardless of how good my intentions may be because of my temperament.
SPEAKER_01That makes me sad.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. So I think it's pretty safe to say that I'm also a spicy one. So maybe I'm not the greatest model, or could that be helpful? I yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, I think there's something so powerful in seeing your trusted adults go through the journey of trying to manage their emotions and their energy and their responses and to see you and and also let us just like let's do an advertisement for the power of repair. And somebody who's always perfect and measured and never pisses anybody off or hurts someone never gets to repair. And the greatest intimacies come from repairing, from humbling yourself and saying, I messed that up. I wish I could do that again. You don't deserve to be yelled at. You deserve to feel safe in this house. I'm gonna start working on doing some more breathing and the power of both saying you matter enough that I would humble myself and apologize, but also watching that it doesn't just happen for you that you struggle at this. You're helping to build a more resilient approach to the world and a growth mindset. So I think it's a beautiful thing. I think what's really ours when you get people pleasers who are raising a spicy one and they're like, oh my gosh, my whole life I've done what I needed to do to fit in, to get along. I've considered others, and here's this kid that does not consider others. Oh, we do, but we really like to have power in a scenario. Power motivates us and not power like I'm gonna take over the world, but impact. I want to create something. I want to have, I want to change this world for the better. And that's a beautiful thing.
SPEAKER_00So something that happens, because we do a lot of this repairing. I I end up apologizing to my kids a lot, and sometimes they apologize to me. But I think as a result, what happens is these these sort of traditionally allocated parental children roles get very blurred. I mean, because I know you're it's a little closer to a friendship in a way, the way the trust is built. It's not just this authoritarian, I say this, you do this. It's a give and take. And we work together and and and sometimes boundaries expand in concert together. But as a result, man, my kids say some shit to me that is just like, holy cow, if I would have said that to my kid, I'd have got a belt over my ass. My dad would have broken a rure over my ass. And so I've been told by a child psychologist that this is actually good news. I mean, my kids call me some some of the most horrible, horrible expletives you've ever heard. And I'm like, I'm just like almost impressed, like, wow, that was imaginative. But I'm given to understand that this means that they are actually comfortable because they could push those boundaries, right? Like if I'm if I was belting them on the side of the head, they wouldn't talk to me that way. I mean, well, can you speak to that a little? I mean, uh, is there a balance between the authority I should exercise and the, you know?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it I think it's I like thinking of it as like a pendulum that's just going back and forth. And that sometimes we want to um, we we don't want anything like the authoritarian that we grew up with. So we go all the way to permissive sometimes. And I'm not saying that's your situation, but we get to come back. Like we go back and forth. There's not a set, oh, I'm always this way or they're always that way. So I just want to say that like we can continue to adjust. Like if you get to a point where you're like, oh, that doesn't feel good when they use those words towards me, and I don't want them using them towards their employer. It's okay to say, whoa, whoa, you know what? I'm gonna talk to you later when you're a little bit calmer. So I just I want to say that. But yes, if they are comfortable, oh my gosh, dad, you you fucking did that to me again. Like if that means that you have a relationship where they get to be their full selves and you're not censoring them and you're not pushing it underground because the spicy one is gonna have their day to uh expose it all and and it can happen, you know, in the relationship or they can go do it somewhere else, or they can wait 20 years till they get to their therapist. So it's a beautiful thing that you've created a relationship where we actually say how we feel. You might want to pepper in some more respect, but then it's like, are you always talking to them with respect? Or are you a spicy family that's fiery? Which is totally great, unless you have that one kid who's like a mild child who's like, this is a living hell who has a different temperament.
SPEAKER_00Well, I want to ask you about something just sort of uh gener general parenting question, which is is any parent of multiple children will tell you they are each their own unique person. Like it doesn't matter. I mean, we've raised our kids with the exact same values, guidelines, traditions. They've all gone to the same schools. They all went to Legoland on their seventh birthday, right? Like all the benchmarks we tried to be super consistent, you know, because fairness matters. I hear so many like screwed up adults that were like, oh, my mom just loved my sister more, like she got all this stuff and I didn't get it. And so we've always been very careful about being and yet you raise them with the same culture, the same values, the same rules, and they just turn out completely different. So, in your mind, how much does modeling or even say heredity play into the equation? Let's talk about the whole continuum of that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's such a a good thing to talk about. I I think that um I know that the research around what research would call challenging children or explosive children, which is another way of saying spicy ones, is that they fall harder or rise higher based on the discipline strategy of a family. Whereas your typical mild child, which is probably 80% of kids, they really don't have that much of a difference in how they're gonna turn out based on how you discipline. Um the stakes are higher and the rewards are higher with a spicy one. They don't, they do not do well with power over and um punishment and belittling and the stuff that like you can pepper a little bit of that on a mild child and they're like, okay, I'm done. I I won't do that thing. This doesn't feel good, right? So keep that in mind. But the research shows that it's not really what the parents have the parents discipline, it's what most likely will get passed on is your values. And that's why it's so heartbreaking when they like choose values that are different than yours, right?
SPEAKER_00I don't know what so far they haven't. I think the values are pretty solid. So I'm feeling pretty good about this. Thank you. And I was worried when you said this balance of discipline and laissez-faire that like I'm always gonna err on the laissez-faire part. I I feel like I feel like I haven't provided enough actual discipline, but I think you gotta start that stuff early, right? I can't just start like start disciplining my 14 and 17-year-old. I needed to start that when they were three, right?
SPEAKER_01Well, what do you mean by discipline? Like when you say maybe you need to do it. Rules.
SPEAKER_00Just rules. I don't mean spent, I don't mean like uh I don't mean like punishment. I mean discipline in terms of guidelines. I mean they're pretty malleable. Like my kid, you know, they can get in trouble, but they'll never lie to me because they know they won't get in trouble. Like, like they just tell me their mistake, and it's like there's not really the repercussions is we're gonna have a conversation about this, and you know, you you see you made a mistake, right? And like, but there's no you're grounded, I'm taking your phone ever. But as a result, they don't they're not running around behind my back, you know?
SPEAKER_01Right. That's the kind of parent every spicy one needs because this is a different kind of kid. We are trying to parent so that we can have a long-term influence on them. And that does not come from, okay, listen, you did this thing, now you have to have this consequence. Um, you know, if if there's some natural consequences, we don't want to remove those. We want we want to let things happen. But it's beautiful that they know that you will be their sounding board because that's what they need, especially as they moved into teenage years. It's a lot less of us telling them what to do. We're moving now into like, what's your plan? What do you think? And we're coaching them. And so it's beautiful that I mean, I I think I'd want to, if I was coaching you, I would want to push into like what structure are you wishing they had that they don't please coach me.
SPEAKER_00Let's do this. This is a great exercise. Sorry, I know this is selfish. I'm making it about me, but I'm just trying to be a better parent. Um, I guess I I would like it if they didn't call me a fucking asshole. You know what I mean? Like they're pretty spicy in their language sometimes when they're pissed off. Um, I feel like because me and my wife are both spicy ones, there's a lot of temperament in our house. I mean, we all kind of blow our top pretty easy. We're really good about forgiving and like sloughing it off somewhat, but like, you know, I would like to find a way to sort of um, you know, mentally I know like I need to temper this and just take a deep breath. Take a deep breath here. Don't, you know. Um, I just feel maybe if I fail them, it's not giving them enough structure. Like I'm not on them about their homework or like, you know, you you gotta do homework between four and six. And then as a result, maybe they sort of push those boundaries a little. And, you know, I I've never those are two very different things.
SPEAKER_01One is you wish you would push them more academically, one is you wish they wouldn't call you a fucking asshole. So reach in yourself and pick one that really is stealing your piece.
SPEAKER_00I don't, well, as somebody who got a D grade point average and did just fine in life, I'm I'm actually not a big, I don't worry about the I don't, I mean, they're smart. My 17-year-old is getting his GED when he decides to go to the program at all, but he's also reading Hegel's dialectics on his own time, and I didn't push him there. So I think I'm feeling all right about his inner intellectual curiosity. And I think, and I think maybe you could tell me this is true about spicy ones. They're more likely not going to fit into a, I mean, they're more likely to sort of find their way in life and find a lifestyle, if given the tools and the confidence to kind of find make a life, instead of like, I'm gonna go to this prep school, then I'm gonna go to Ivy League school, then I'm gonna get a, you know, uh go get an internship on Wall Street. I don't think that's in store for any of them.
SPEAKER_01So I guess the spicy ones are the entrepreneurs, are the activists, they are forging their own path. And part of that is because they're experiential learners. You can tell them, oh, you know what, I did that. It didn't work out, it hurts, you're not gonna want to do it, and they can nod and they're gonna go feel it in their body and feel that failure, and then stand back up and go, Oh, yeah, I'm never gonna do that again. And so it's very frustrating as a parent of a spicy one because you've got some wisdom, you've you've done some things, you've you've had some pain that you could you could stop them from having if it was if you could impart information just with words, but it doesn't work with that kid, uh, they are gonna, they're gonna have to experience it to go out.
SPEAKER_00Isn't that one of the toughest things about parenting? Is I did so much crazy shit as a teenager. And it's some of the greatest shit I ever did, and some of the most memorable stuff. But like as a parent, you're like, I don't want my kid doing that. I don't want my kid climbing a, you know, a 100-foot cedar in a thunderstorm. I don't want my kid uh, you know, experimenting with the psychoactive drugs that I did at a younger age. I I don't know that I want my kid to be in a touring punk band at 14, but like I kind of got if i if they have the impetus and uh you gotta kind of let them go at some point, right?
SPEAKER_01Well, you gotta you gotta be in charge of what you're in charge of. And when we take over responsibility, it will d wake us up at 4 a.m., right? So I think really keeping in mind how you speak to your kids about their experiences because we are very uh much a part of them forming their self-talk. And you probably said some things when you're climbing that huge tree in a lightning storm of like, I trust myself, I know what I'm doing. That's an amazing thing for a spicy one to be telling themselves. And we can put the kibosh on that by saying, like, I don't know what you're doing, I don't think this is a good idea. So we as parents have bec because we have a spicy one who's an experiential learner and is gonna fail a lot and not be on the same beautiful path that the guy down the street is, we're gonna have to really work on focusing on our hopes and not our fear. Because when we parent from fear, even our body is different, our vibe is different, and it's harder for them to trust us. So we gotta really be in a place of like, what is your greatest hope for that 17-year-old? What do you believe is possible if they if they are their highest self and speak from that as much as possible?
SPEAKER_00So I'm hoping I I my 17-year-old has really come back. He's never gonna listen to this, but like when freshman year, he he was he went through a period where he was making some very bad decisions for it's a very short stage, actually. And then um, I don't remember exactly how we dealt with it. He didn't get in trouble. I'm asking him, like, dude, what are you thinking? Blah, blah, blah. You know, we we had conversations about it, but now he doesn't make those decisions anymore. He makes better decisions, and he has some friends that are making terrible decisions, but I actually can now trust him not to make the same decisions or be pressured into making those decisions. I I I feel confident now that he's gonna make those right decisions. He may still get himself into some sketchy situations, but compared to some of his friends, I feeling pretty good. But I I I don't know. It's so hard. How how many kids do you have?
SPEAKER_01I've got two. I've got a spicy one girl and a mild tile boy, and the the difference is incredible. But I've seventeen hundred people have gone through my course, and so I've heard so many stories of of of the it's really hard. I mean, it these kids, the the stake seems Bigger because they make bigger swings and they they do things that could put them more at risk and also could be huge wins.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, a spicy one's more likely, I would guess, to like get straight F's but be a smart kid.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And that and that's called a spiky personality where you're extremely gifted at some things like what an old soul, like you're the you want their advice on something, or they can teach this thing, but then they're completely deficient in another. And some of those things catch up as we get older. Some of them are it's a developmental, you know, delay that might be forever. But I do want to go back to them calling you a fucking asshole. If you want to talk about that.
SPEAKER_00Sure. So maybe I'll let them listen to it. We'll make a clip out of this one, Jason, and I'll make them listen to it.
SPEAKER_01Or you use it as your secret weapon. Whenever you get like a parenting kernel, don't tell your kids where you got it. Just act like it came from you. It's leadership, right? So do you call them a fucking asshole?
SPEAKER_00No. I've let's say I've gone 65 or 70% of there in a moment of like them doing something really thoughtless and dumb. I mean, I've yeah, I've said like, but it takes a different form. It's not just name calling. It's like, what the fuck were you thinking? Jesus, that was such a stupid move. Or you know what I mean? It's like pretty critical, but it's not just name calling, like, you know, it's not uh, but it probably could have the same effect, you know.
SPEAKER_01And you and you're an emotional dude. What in what's the scenario where they're calling you those names?
SPEAKER_00It doesn't take much. It doesn't take much. I could just be uh bugging them, getting in their hair, like reminding them something for the third time because they didn't do it the first two times. So my brain is like, well, I guess they need another reminder. And then coming to terms with the fact that they know they don't need to be reminded, they are just gonna make damn sure they do it on their own time and you know it. So that's been a revelation lately is that okay, they actually do need this stuff. And I these are the times like when I am trying to assert some sort of parental guidance, like you need to do this. Don't, you know, schedule your drives. This is gonna lapse, and then you won't be able to get your license, stuff like that. And if I push them too hard, or or you know, if I come at them like I don't know.
SPEAKER_01It's when you're playing the role you think is important to play as a parent. Yeah, you're stepping into and sometimes it sounds like it might be um when you're sort of being the boss. Trying. Trying. Um I think it's important if you don't want that behavior anymore, to first off come up with like a name for it. Like I would call that name calling. Because it sounds like cursing's okay in your house.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, I mean, yeah. Sure. I mean, I don't I don't I I mean, I maybe I've tried to teach them coding, like don't talk like that in front of your teachers or you know, in front of your friends' parents. So, like I think they have the coding, like they will say stuff in front of me I know that they wouldn't say in public. So I know that that's important psychological, that they know the difference. Um, but yeah, no, I'm fine with I want them to express themselves. Um I I don't really think they mean it when they call me those names. You know what I mean? They're just like blowing off steam, clearly, and then three minutes later they're hugging me. So, you know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And it's very spicy one coded behavior to it's like you want you want the feeling off of you, so you say it is the most powerful thing you can to make it stop. Um, I think it I think you're a vulnerable guy and you can use that vulnerability to your um positive as a parent. I could see them saying, You get well, stop telling me you fucking asshole. And you should. And then if I cried, if I cried, not a cry, but like having an immediate response, like hands on the heart, like, ooh, ouch. Like, dude, you know, palms up, something that just says, I'm gonna walk away now. So they feel that, like, that, oh, that didn't feel good. I I didn't get the response I was hoping. I didn't, um, I I saw the hurt. And then I think you should name it like, hey, I want to do a better job as a family of not name calling. So I want to give you skills. How do you, how do you want to get space from me? How do you want to set up a boundary when I'm in your business and you don't want me there? And I'll do a little bit because spicy ones do really good with setting an expectation and talking with them doing the leading of it.
SPEAKER_00That's good.
SPEAKER_01The the brainstorming of how will it go? And then they can envision it. And it's like Serena Williams thinking about tennis. Like you gotta plan it, your brain doesn't know the difference, and then you practice it. So it's like you kind of have to decide, yeah, this is important enough for me to bring up to make it uncomfortable when they do it, to and and yeah, I feel I sense a little bit of ambivalence. And that's like one of my things I tell parents is if you're gonna set a rule or try to teach a behavior, you need to know your why. So that you're not feeling like, oh, okay, never mind. I don't do I do I even have the right to ask for this, right? So kind of pushing into it, maybe writing it out, and then you don't need to come up with different ways to say it each time. It's like if if you know that this matters to you, whatever boundary you're thinking about, then your parental resolve is a powerful thing. And they get it.
SPEAKER_00That is a great little kernel right there. That's something I can turn into a tool right there, and it makes perfect sense, which is that if they're reacting to me, uh, I'm gonna be like, look, okay, this isn't working. But can you see this from my perspective? I'm just trying to assure that this happens or this happens and that you stay with it. Tell me how do you think we should do this? To give them the power back like that, but to still be talking about the thing. I mean, that duh, like, why didn't I think of that? You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01Timing is everything because you're not doing this when they're heated, you're not doing this when they're teacher Ellen.
SPEAKER_00That's one of the teacher Ellen things. Teachable moments. She was talking about the cerebral cortex or whatever. Like, you don't do it in the middle of the fight, you find it when you're getting along and you're taking a drive, and you go, hey, you know the other day when you did that. And then that's exactly right. And I've I've found that to work, but I just got a new tool from you today, which is it, I'm gonna put it back on them. Look, okay, if my nagging isn't working here, I just want you to know why I'm doing it and how I'm trying to accomplish it. How do you think we should handle it? And just by even asking them the question and empowering them, that's great, dude. That's I like at duh, right? Like, there's so many like intuitive, like common sense parental stuff that we don't do just because of the power, the inherent power structure or whatever.
SPEAKER_01There's also the whole Gandhi thing, right? Like being the change we want to see. And I think it might be powerful for you to say individually to each kid, this is not something you do with everybody at once, because then it's sort of a numbers, safety and numbers thing against you, is saying, like, hey, I've been thinking, I don't want to, I don't want to call you names. I don't want to say things that kind of like stick with you that aren't positive and affirmative, because I want to be your biggest cheerleader. So I want you to know I'm working on that. And then you give yourself a month of you're just working on it and it, you are cleaning up your side of the street before you come to them and say, Hey, I've noticed you're pretty loose with the word asshole when you're talking about me. Doesn't feel great, guy. And they can look back and be like, Yeah, he doesn't do that to me. Something to consider.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, I'm I'm I'm usually guilty on some level. They they they push the boundaries a little harder. Oh, God, I have so many questions I haven't even gotten to. Well, one of these is again, this comes back to to me as the parent and not the spicy one, but like in chapter six, you talk about listening to your inner child, about considering your own upbringing. And it's interesting to me that I never really had much of a relationship with my dad. I mean, he left when I was eight years old, and then I'd see him for a couple weeks in summer, and he was always at work. But I always maintain some sort of civil, you know, he was kind of a cool guy. He was smart, knew some Latin, knew some Greek. I could learn stuff from him. But increasingly, um, as I've busted my butt to be a parent and and stayed up at till four in the morning and continually put their health and their well-being and their happiness above my own, the less of a relationship I've had with my dad because he never did any of that. And so I just start to think like, you know, I'm so busy. I how the hell could you how the hell could you have never more invested in my development? You know, why didn't you do any of this? Is this a story you hear often from parents?
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah. It's the heartbreak of being a conscious parent. Consciousness hurts like hell. Like the more you realize what these kids need, you realize that little Jonathan needed this too. And how what kind of madman wouldn't want to know everything about his child? And you you realize you can kind of go to a dark place of how um I like to think how unsupported they were this last generation. There weren't parenting books. You know, if they were, it was like cry it out, like you know, let children, children need to be seen and not heard, kind of thing. So, yes, there's a there's a lot of people who also want to kind of just say, well, uh, Mikey parents did the best I could, like you said, like somebody would have just hit me over the head with a with a with a belt if I did that. And then you move on, you kind of laugh about it. But that to me is sort of an untapped minefield that we have to go visit in order to be the most grounded and conscious parent we can be for our kids. Like we need to be able to tell the story coherently of what happened to us, what we didn't get that we desperately wanted, so that we're not bringing that stuff, dragging it in unconsciously into the current relationship we have with our kid.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So, like, like as just as a, you know, as a parent, every parent, a normal parent, I would think, or feeling empathic parent feels just this amazing concern for their child and awareness of their child. And I just feel like previous generations kind of get a pass, like, well, we just didn't know any better. Everybody was doing it that way. That wouldn't affect me. I'm telling you, like, I live in a place where, you know, there's so many rich parents, they just throw money at the problem. So the kids are materially spoiled, but they're not paying any attention to them. I'm not looking around going, well, that's how the other parents are doing it. I mean, that's just how we do it. I just kind of feel like we give it away.
SPEAKER_01Jonathan, you're missing the big point. You're a spicy one. You don't do things just because other people do it. You have a deep sense of um justice and a locus of belief that's in you have more loyalty to your own soul than to what others expect of you. And that's what makes you a spicy one. And that's that's kind of a divergent uh way of showing up in the world. It's beautiful, but it's not typical.
SPEAKER_00Interesting. No wonder the world's so fucked up.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I'm sorry, but like I just feel like as a human being, you'd have that response. I don't, I don't know, that's weird.
SPEAKER_01But also I I do think that uh the the generation before us that raised us was traumatized. It was like slap across the face. What do you no? Shut your mouth, you don't do that, or or I just think they were made to be so small that they did a little bit better than the generation before them, and we'll never know the trauma that they had.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's true. I mean, their parents were even worse than them, uh, likely. As a general exercise, can can can you sort of set up your parent parental parenting philosophy in sort of a masl a Maslowian uh hierarchical way? Like what what what what is at the base of that hierarchy and what is at the top of that pyramid, you know? Like in terms of of of Yeah, uh I I'll try it.
SPEAKER_01I I think what's most important is maintaining a high positive regard for your child, even when they are not acting in a way that would, they're not trying to earn your love. It's and and so loving them unconditionally is to me that bottom of the Maslow's hierarchy. And then at the top is delighting in them, like going beyond just, yeah, I love them, you know, they're they're this is my obligation, and is finding ways to be in awe of what's already good about them, especially this kind of kid who is disappointing us on some level in a lot of ways. And so we can, our brain, we have to grab it like a stallion to get on the path we need it on, because we can go to a place of like, ugh, this fucking kid, I love them, but I don't have to like them. I mean, I hear that all the time when someone's just starting in my program. We need to get to a place where it's like, oh, you want to hear about my kid? They are fascinating, they have such a love for animals. Like, I the the cover of my book, if you take it off underneath it, is like all the different positive words for this kid because we can forget, we can have um a myopathy that just focuses on what's wrong with them. And they are loving, they are loyal, they are playful, they are remorseful, they are tenacious, they are unapologetically themselves. And so we have to do the work to like them, to delight in them. And sometimes, I don't know where this goes in the triangle, that's gonna start with we have to love and like ourselves. It's really hard to leapfrog of I'm such a fucking loser, but I'm gonna love these kids well. It doesn't really work because when you have a mean inner voice, it comes out in ways on your kid that you aren't aware of, or you have this high need and they can feel your anxiety. And so there's a lot of inner work we have to do to show up to be the parent they need.
SPEAKER_00I want to come back to something, another one of the ones teacher Ellen talked to me, because it's something you talk a lot about in in the book, too, the importance of this. And I would put this as almost singularly important, um, which is connection.
SPEAKER_01Can I guess what it is? Because I didn't do a good job with the Maslow's hierarchy. Connection over control also goes in.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, just connection. The word was connection, yes. Because what teacher Ellen had told us is just as an exercise, just like keep yourself honest with this. Just 15 minutes of completely uninterrupted one-on-one connection is so important. And it's so hard to do because we got a phone or a screen or you're cooking dinner, but just uninterrupted. And I mean, I feel like I connect with my kids a lot, play games and stuff like that. But like, I want to protect just that 15-minute, I just use that metric. So, like every evening that it's just not pouring rain, me and my youngest are taking a bike ride, just me and her and riding around and doing laps, but it's just nothing. There's no phones, nothing. It's just us talking. And it's just that connection seems like that's like what I would kind of put at the bottom of my hierarchy, along with at the at the base of that. I mean, well, you know, first is food and shelter and clothing, you know what I mean? But then like unconditional love and then connection. Like this idea of like actually seeing your child. And it's harder when you get a house full of them, too, you know what I mean? And and then you have a middle child that's, you know, you don't want it to be Jan Brady, you know what I mean? And she's already aware she's the middle child, so she gotta think she's, you know, so you gotta, it's just such a balancing act. But like I think at the end of the day, just that connection, like, can you just speak to the importance of that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'm so glad you brought that up because that like having especially when you're in a place where you aren't really liking your kid or they aren't liking you, there is nothing that will heal that better than set aside one-on-one time. And often people will do it and they'll be like, well, it wasn't that great. They cried the whole time or they told me I sucked or whatever. That's important time. Like we're we're not gonna, we have to remember this kid is not here to nurture us. We are here to nurture that child. And so, you know, setting your your expectations isn't may not be what looks like a kumbaya moment, but your child deserves to be pursued by someone who loves them. And so showing up, just coming and laying on the floor in their room without your phone, they may be suspicious if you haven't done this in a while and might be like, what are you doing in here? And it's like, I just like being in your in your vibe, like being in your orbit and calming ourselves, maybe meditating if it that's really hard for us to not be doing something. But when you're constantly doing, you're not really creating that connection. So some people are like, well, what do you mean by connection? Well, generally there might be some eye contact, there's a soft smile um on your face. There is a um, maybe your breathing gets synced up. And this can happen when you're both like working maybe um shoulder to shoulder on something or a drive or riding your bike, but can also just be you showing up with no expectation. And if that's the time they decide to dump one of their grievances because they have a lot of them, that's okay. You're not trying to fix them, let them listening.
SPEAKER_00That's a big point of connection, right? I mean, that's a huge point.
SPEAKER_01And there's there's nothing like being a person who will help them pop the zits of their emotions. So they're like, My brother is such such a jerk. He, I wish he'd never been born. We we sort of go to this place, like, no, no, no, you don't think that he's your brother. No, instead, pop a zit, be like, sounds awful. Sounds like you're really pissed at him. You can reframe it a little bit.
SPEAKER_00So right, and it's so hard to do.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You know what I mean? Because you want to protect the other kid, but you're right. Just listen, listen. They've been trying to teach, you know, a thousand generations of men to do this, you know, because women want to dump sometimes, and guys always want to be prescriptive, you know, just as a sort of generalization. It's like, well, what you need to do is, and really what they're supposed to just like just shut up and listen. You gotta do that.
SPEAKER_01I think one thing that can help with that is is the question of and this grows great with teenagers and a spouse, like, what would be most helpful for you right now? Do you just need somebody to listen, or are you gonna want some advice? And they will usually say, I don't want advice, I just want you to listen. And that kind of helps put it in what bucket for while you're listening as well. And one thing also that helps to be a good listener is to think, to give your brain something to do, because sometimes it's like, okay, okay, I think I've heard enough. I just want to tell them what to do. Ask your brain to figure out what is the emotion or the human need underneath these words. And that can help you kind of have a couple jobs as you're listening.
SPEAKER_00That's exactly how you write good dialogue, too. I mean, just talking to you as a novelist, that's exactly it's like what's really being talked about here? Like, what is underneath the glacier? You know, the conversation is the tip of the glacier, but it's all this stuff going on underneath it that's like really charging the conversation. People could be talking about cheeseburgers, but they're actually talking about this other thing. Um you said the uh refreshingly, you said the thing out loud that every parent feels, but nobody says it because they makes them sound like a monster or whatever. But sometimes you just don't like your kids. I mean, there are moments where you just don't like them. I mean, it may just it's usually for me, it's just like momentary. It's like one aspect of them, but like sometimes they go through a period where early teens, anybody, you know, seventh, eighth grade, both times so far for me have been kind of rough times. And and parents are loath to just admit it to themselves that like just something you you you have to overcome the fact that sometimes you you you don't like the direct I'm gonna say you don't not that you don't like them, that you don't like the direction they're going or the decisions they're making. And that's a hard thing to acknowledge.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and sometimes you aren't liking the parts of them that people didn't like in you growing up. Yes. So I I always like to like take a step back. How did people treat you when you exhibited those behaviors or felt that way? What would you have needed? What would have felt good? Um and I think sometimes that can help like look at the peel the onion back a little bit. And also we need to not take it so personally. Like we've seen this in every like this is the archetype of an adolescent is that they rip away and they dislike the things about you that they're deciding are not them and they're individuating, and it's so textbook. And yet every parent is like, ouch. And it's gonna happen. It's a part of it. They come back. And can we be grounded enough? Can we have enough going on in our interior world that we can be okay when they're not? That is one of the biggest like journeys in parenthood, I think.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and another thing, and you've spoken to this a little bit already in in in different guises, but there's there's a certain type of parent, God knows there's a lot of them. Um, well, all of us really, at some point, that we judge their children, our children by one standard or another, and that's relative to whatever that standard may be, whether it's, you know, academic or this is how it was for me, why isn't it that way for them? But you propose an alternative to judgment. Uh, you know, talk about that. What is the alternative to judging your child?
SPEAKER_01I mean, I I talk about being a delighted anthropologist, which is sort of like you walk into this indigenous tribe and you can't assume you know anything. You don't know what it's like to be them, you don't understand the rules, you don't know the the um the way people dress. And to just have a countenance that's I'm in awe of this person. I don't know what's going on for them. I'm going to um let them tell me. And I'm going to be curious, like like nurturing and stoking our curiosity in the other. I mean, marriages die when someone says, Yeah, I kind of know everything about this person. There's, you know, there's nothing else. That's not true. The we are a different person each day. So to me, the antidote of judging a kid is being just so curious about them. Um, but tell me a little bit more in case I'm I'm not thinking of a section of the book.
SPEAKER_00Um, I think you kind of covered what I was saying. Is I I like this idea of the anthropologist just like, okay, so you're not measuring up to this whatever standard I've created that I expect of you, or something like that, in terms of what, whatever that may be. For me, it's not academics, as we always cover, but maybe um how you're treating your friend or or how you're just what whatever the issue may be. But I think you've got gotten to something. If you, if you're if I'm if I'm catching your meaning, it's more like maybe you ask them questions out of your curiosity, like, why do you feel that way about this thing? Or like try to understand, because that's connection, that's uh presence, that's uh, you know, asking, like, why did you come to the conclusion, you know, as an anthropologist would, you know, don't just look at the end result and make a value judgment. Ask, like, again, to use another glacier metaphor, like, what's going on beneath that glacier? I'm curious about you. Why do you feel this way?
SPEAKER_01Ooh, I really like what's going on beneath that, or why questions can shut someone down. So I would I would advise to not say why, um, but to say, like, what's important about that, or what's the best part of that, or what does that make you think of, or what does that remind you of, or what yeah, what's important about that? That's a beautiful way of getting a little deeper. But also let us remember.
SPEAKER_00So what's all right, just avoid why. It's interesting. It's interesting that what and why would be different, but they actually really are. Like, you know, you think who, where, what, why.
SPEAKER_01But why is why implies judgment, like you must tell me why, you know, like well, and why assumes that there's a yes and a no, like why this and not that versus what is more expansive. But I had a thought, and I'm ADHD, so it's gone.
SPEAKER_00Sorry, my spicy dig mouth drained it right out of you. Um well, let's talk about the importance of structure and rhythm in family life and and and how that can look differently. I mean, I it seems to me that consistency is so important. So we have this kind of weird lifestyle where we're not always together all the time because I go to the cabin by myself for two days a week, and then we are all together for the weekend, and then my wife usually just stays a night at the cabin, so she has some time to unwind, and then me and the kids go back, and then we're all together again, and then I leave. But it is pretty consistent, but it's not can we just talk about structure and rhythm? Like, what is important about structure and rhythm in in in rearing your kids?
SPEAKER_01Because it seems like it plays into stability and pred predictability or whatever, like well, I think it sounds like a beautiful rhythm, and I think what's important for children is to have visibility of what's going to happen, to have some some ability to expect and have a little bit of of like a domain over their experience. So if that's the rhythm, having that in um a visual that people can see is so important. Um so that it's not all in the adults' heads, which brings up the sort of the rebellious counter will and the spicy one, like I don't know where I'm going, it's always up to you. Putting it out there and is important visually. But you can have the craziest family life. But if there are repeated moments of reconnection that everyone knows will happen, um, even if they miss it this time, it always kind of happens on Sundays, or we always know that on Thursday nights we're gonna do this, or my dad's gonna pull me aside, we're gonna go on the bike ride. When they happen with some regularity and you can expect them, even though a lot of spicy ones will use that time to unburden themselves and lose it, but they need that from you, right? They need that co-regulation. That's a beautiful rhythm. We just need to have these times that we're gonna be back together. And then for a lot of families, we need times with nothing planned, um, a little openness in the schedule uh to dream and figure out what you think about things.
SPEAKER_00It's so interesting what you were saying about making the process transparent and letting them know what's gonna happen and so that they won't react. So it reminded me when my caregiving days when I would work with kids with like acute Asperger's where I would make lists. We would write down a list. Because like when the routine gets screwed up, like they need to, you know, it'd be like first we're gonna go to the grocery store, and then we're gonna get then we're gonna go to the library, you know what I mean? It was like a checklist so that they they felt in control, they knew what to expect, the expectation was there. Now, this is a very basic way of doing it, but you're doing it for the same reasons, so that predictability kind of keeps the um unpredictability in check, like they know what to expect, so they're less likely to blow their top or whatever. They did that's it's just really interesting.
SPEAKER_01I'm not comparing all children to children with Asperger's, but like I think that's from those that need accommodations. Often we all need accommodations, they just look a little bit different. Um, so I think that's a great connection you make.
SPEAKER_00I mean, we use this word neurodivergence, but like let's be honest. I mean, uh uh objectively, we're all neurodivergent in a way. There's just degrees of it. It's a continuum. Yeah, but like no two people are the exact same. Some people maybe are a little more um towards the center of the spectrum in terms of like uh conformity or whatever.
SPEAKER_01But um I'm learning a lot.
SPEAKER_00This is this is what I had hoped for this. I've got to be a little bit more. Oh, good.
SPEAKER_01There's one more thing I want to add to this idea of rhythm, and it's kind of we're gonna combine what you talked about having that one-on-one time or special time, some people will call it, is knowing ahead of time that my parent is gonna want to spend one-on-one time with me because groups, group cohesion is awesome, but it's a different thing than my dad wants to be alone hanging out with me. I must really matter to him. I get a chance to maybe even reject him in that. And he's gonna, he is, he is um grounded enough to handle that. So we when you have done the hard work of making sure you're gonna have special time with your kid, brand that motherfucker. Like, say, like, I cannot wait till next Tuesday when you and I are gonna go pick up the um tent on our together. It's just me and you going on that 40-minute ride. I want to hear everything, bring your sticker book, whatever. Like talking about it ahead of time, because so much of human flourishing or happiness is like putting memories in, and that happens when there's an expectation that we're like nurturing and fantasizing about. So if you are taking the time to have some weekly touch point with your kid, make sure you're getting the full credit for it by talking about it.
SPEAKER_00I'll tell you, I'll go one further on you. My 17-year-old still talks about see, we always did it, it was easier when they were a little younger, nobody had school schedules, right? Like nobody was in school yet. And oh God, boy, those are the days. Just have your whole crew. But what we could do is we're gonna have a daddy-daughter night. Like when we'd do like rotating weekends where it would just be like, just daddy and Lulu are going to the cabin for a weekend, and then mommy and Emma and Owen are gonna stay here, or just mommy and owen are gonna go to the cabin and the rest of it, you know. So there was these, it was a lot easier when schedules were more, but you know, but it's funny, like it was called a daddy-daughter night or a boys' night with me and Owen, and like we and he still the other night, you know, like a couple weeks ago, he's going. I remember, you know, when it would just be me and you at the cabin and we'd watch Godzilla films, or you know, we'd do those Lego builds and stuff like that. And I'm just like, wow, that worked. I mean, like he's talking about it 14 years later or 13 years later, he still remembers that. So, like the proof is in the pudding. It's hard to do our busy.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it it it really m makes a difference. And for busy families, never forget you can go pull your kid out of lunch and go like have like some amazing takeout fast food, crappy food in the car, and just they're gonna be like, Did someone die? And it's like, no, I just want to hang out with you. I mean, it's probably better if they know it's coming.
SPEAKER_00That's a great one. That's an awesome one. Keep going. Sorry, sorry, I was just actively listening. That's I had a light bulb go off.
SPEAKER_01That sometimes families do not have the child care or the space to be doing it. So having like, hey, on next Tuesday, can I come have lunch with you? We'll just hang out in the program. And what do you want? Okay, I'll bring McDonald's. There's the also like, hey, on Wednesday night, I'm gonna ask you to stay up. Will you stay up 30 minutes later with me and daddy? And it'll and we'll just read books or whatever. There's something about I'm gonna pull you. I mean, it was so cool in school when it when a teacher we loved would be like, hey, I'm gonna pull you out and we're gonna work on this one-on-one. There's something different that happens one-on-one, and we have to, we have to support that with the the way we schedule things.
SPEAKER_00This is just such an important reminder for me personally, because you know, a busy family life, it's just chaotic when all five of us are together. Um, I mean, like we all five kind of a surprise. I was coming back from the cabin and they were heading to Paulsbow for some reason, and then we hooked up, and I thought it was just gonna be me and my wife meeting for lunch in between. And here comes the whole kids, all the kids, because they didn't have school because of uh, you know, um, I I didn't, I'd forgotten that they didn't have school because of uh uh teacher conferences. And it was like there we are all together, and my heart was just like, ah, but of course, then we just fucking fought the whole time. It was like it's chaos. So this is like such an important reminder, not just to me, but other parents with multiple kids, just how important it is to just isolate them one-on-one sometimes and show them that like you're not just part of this chaos. Like I see you and you see me. We have our relationships. It's really that that's so important. And I feel like it just gets so easily lost.
SPEAKER_01It's hard. The other thing is we're in the midst of that chaos, having some rituals that bring a little bit of self-disclosure into it, you know, whether that's having conversation cards you got off Amazon that, like, okay, this is our conversation for the day, and everyone rolls their eyes and makes you feel like a loser, and it's always a better conversation. And somebody you learn something about somebody you didn't know. Same with like doing what's your rose, what's your thorn? Um, everybody, when they're older, this is a great thing if you're listening to younger kids, start it early, where it's just you know that everyone's gonna go around and say best part of their day was their petal or their rose, worst part was the thorn, and then maybe something they're looking forward to. And I mean, that's in like the Gottman marriage principles that you need to have that uh daily to stay connected and to be in someone's inner world. You need those conversations. It's really hard when you have a large family.
SPEAKER_00That's a killer idea and so simple. I I was thinking about it as we do it. We do we do these things, like we'll be driving because we have to do a lot of driving as a family back and forth between the two places. And uh, I'll be like, okay, you guys. Or if we come back from vacation, we routinely it's like, okay, what was your favorite part of the vacation? What was your favorite moment? And someone say, I really love the koi pond in the hotel, or I really love when we went to the escape room, or I love it's like so everybody, so it's a just a version with that, but you can pick like an evergreen, you could pick a subject that isn't just about the vacation or having fun, or you know, it's a great exercise. I think I would definitely get the I roll with the cue cards, but I could definitely just like bring it up, like let's, you know, not if I can make it feel like this is not an exercise and just start conversations that way when we're all together.
SPEAKER_01Or you do the thing that that works well with spicy one, which is you individually have a conversation with each of them saying, I want to do this at lunch, will you support me? Or what would make it less cringe for you? And now they're they're bought in on it and they feel like they're kind of owning it. Um that will make it more likely.
SPEAKER_00But it'll be less cringe if you don't say cringe. That's what my kids would say. If I say if I should talk about their aura or anything I like that, or if I say, Man, look at your riz, they're just like, no, uh-uh, you don't get to use our language. Pretty funny. Um, gosh, this is really this is what I was hoping. I know that's selfish. I was just this is what I was hoping for. I needed a parenting pep talk, and you seem like somebody that had the wisdom and the insight and and the tools, see, the tools are so important. I feel like they can be very simple. That's it. That's a good time to hold the book up. Like, because there's a lot of tools in this book. Parenting is the idea. I'm gonna I have to go through and read it cover to cover now. You know, obviously, because I didn't have a lot of time to prep. I went through and, you know, you know, each chapter and I did more skimming than I needed.
SPEAKER_01If I don't mind saying so myself, the audio book's really good because it's me. And my brother said, Hey, you've always wanted to be a voiceover star. Why don't you just try and make it funny? Like do characters. And I was like, Thank you. I'm gonna do that. It's my book. So it's a good listen to on Audible.
SPEAKER_00So I've we're almost we can run a little long, that's fine. I just got two more. One, one, one is that we've kind of touched on it a little bit, but I really want to put a fine point on this one because I think it's the one parents struggle with so much, is like, you know, look, kids, especially teenagers, they just resist instruction. Okay. It's a rite of passage. Um, and I mentioned earlier, teacher Ellen would always talk about find those teachable moments, you know, find the moments where tempers aren't running high and everybody's just kind of mellow and everybody's getting along, and maybe you can have that sort of difficult conversation, but it feels more casual. It doesn't feel like somebody's cornered or anything like that. But what are some more parenting hacks for instructing a child? Like for guiding them without guiding them, you know, where the where the guidance doesn't seem like uh a mandate.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, uh, which is and the reason you're asking, because this kind of kid bristles when it starts to feel like a power over. I think talking, asking them what's important in this scenario for you. Like when we're at home, what kind of vibe do you want here? Like if you could have three words to describe how how we treat each other, what would you say they are? And get them to set the goal, and then you can you have more permission to talk about, well, there's some ways to get there. What do you think they are? Does yelling at each other get us there? No, you know, or maybe it's the trash can situation that they never take. And you can say, What's what's your hope when it comes to like cleanliness or or how you want to live in this kitchen? And so starting from that place of getting pulling out from them what's important to them so you can speak their language is important.
SPEAKER_00Then the other the short answer to that is kind of like the the common theme with all those things you just said is kind of giving them a voice in that guidance. Yes. Saying, how would you like to be guided? Where do you want to go? You know what I mean? So, like it's such a fundamentally simple idea, but it's such an elusive thing because we're all wrapped up in like I'm supposed to be the authority here. Right. But like, especially as they get older, giving them a voice in this the whole, you know, how do you want me to guide you? I'm not going anywhere. I'm your parent until you're 18, but how would you prefer this to look? Yes.
SPEAKER_01And but they won't believe you unless there is like an undercurrent of respect for them. So I'm saying you do this if you also have done the work to be like, hey, I think you got a great head on your shoulders. Like you, you, you always have an internal compass. You know what you want, kind of is is what we're saying to them, so that then we can we trust them in some of this decision making. That's hard if you're telling them that they uh are making stupid decisions all the time. And if they have been, so affirmations are important. That's number two. You the you know, the first one being involve them in the goal. The second is like you need to speak life over this kid so they know that you believe in them and you see the good in them. Um, otherwise, you just they don't give you that window of influence on them. And then the third thing would be use your body in parenting. And I don't mean that in an imposing way, but if you are setting a limit or asking for something, don't do it from the couch with your ass on the cushions, shouting across the room, it doesn't work with this person. You need to go find them, connect, smile. How you doing? Hey, I need you to take the trash out.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01You're making eye contact, you're not moving, you're not keeping it chill. You're fully there if it's important enough to ask. And they can sense, oh wow, they're bringing, he's bringing his full consciousness to this. He's not gonna forget he asked. So, yeah, use your body, get up off the couch.
SPEAKER_00So when I'm really feeling neurotic about my parenting, or have I failed? Have I failed? Have I failed? And I feel like this in everything. I feel like this with my art and everything. I'm just very self-critical or whatever. But like the one time I know I feel like I've done it right is that my kids hug me all the time. I mean, we are very, I mean, they just out of the blue, come and hug me. They'll just be like, I'm sitting on the couch and my 17-year-old boy who just talks like a sailor and he can be very opaque and very temperamental sometimes, just started rubbing my shoulders. Just, and I'm just like, He did it right. You know, I just so the last question I'm gonna ask is how do we silence our own inner critic as parents?
SPEAKER_01Okay, wait, we could have done a whole hour on this. So um, I Well, you have time.
SPEAKER_00We can go all along. Listen, I still have about 18 questions for you. I love that.
SPEAKER_01I do have to go, I have a lunch, but I um first off, knowing who that voice is, who does it remind you of? Who somebody may have spoken harshly to you as you were little and now you're taking over the job. And if it isn't a person, there's some archetypes. Is it a monster? Like I've got a voice that says, That's it, now you get it. Um, that just I'm like, there she is, she's a real treat. Or is it a beggar? A lot of us have a part in it's like, why can't I get anything? And there's a victim mentality. So kind of getting a sense of like how does that voice talk? What does it say? And separating it from who you are. This is kind of like IFS internal family system stuff. But when we can talk about, oh, I have this voice that says this versus I think this, a lot happens. And this also comes from positive intelligence, Shrazad Sharmeen's work. Um, speaking about that voice in the third person would be the first step towards reducing its impact on you. So you might think, um, gosh, I love these kids, and yet I feel like they're not gonna be okay. Well, that's a really powerful statement that corrodes your parenting. Instead, pause, reframe it to, I love these kids. I have this voice, and maybe you name it. I got the sergeant who is yelling at me, telling me they're not gonna be okay. I can do something about that because that's separate from me. You can do the same with anxiety, it needs to be a separate being that's within you versus you.
SPEAKER_00Yes, good. You're good with the clarity, man. I need I need I need a little Mary Van Geffen to carry around in my pocket and like lift up to my ear about 15 times a year. Yeah, it does sound bad. Sorry. Uh, but you know what I mean. I just need you. This voice has been very helpful for me today. Um, I feel like I learned a few parenting hacks. I got some great reminders. I hope that was the case with all our uh uh parental listeners out there as well. So thank you. Uh, she is Mary Van Geffen. She is a child whisperer. Check out her book, hold it up again. That's mixed for great audio, too. Uh, Parenting a Spicy One, available anywhere books are sold. Mary, thanks for being our Fresh Face in Hell this week. It was a joy. Thank you. Fresh Face in Hell with Jonathan Evison is brought to you by Fresh Face Pods and produced by Jason Potkin and yours truly. Check us out on Instagram, YouTube, or at our website at FreshfacePods.tv. Don't forget to subscribe to our newsletter for updates and special content. And if you love the podcast, by all means run it and buy all of Jonathan Evison's award winning novels wherever books are sold.
